{ "guild": { "id": "1361349522684510449", "name": "wafer.space Community", "iconUrl": "2026-06_media/fb143eaa45770cbb40493d09b625e98b-09FD1.png" }, "channel": { "id": "1505050433586991195", "type": "GuildPublicThread", "categoryId": "1409660288822673408", "category": "questions", "name": "Is magic PEX extraction expected broken for `gf180mcu_fd_sc_mcu7t5v0__fillcap_64`?", "topic": null }, "dateRange": { "after": "2026-05-31T23:59:59.999+00:00", "before": "2026-07-01T00:00:00+00:00" }, "exportedAt": "2026-06-16T16:45:59.8273969+00:00", "messages": [ { "id": "1513341396017348750", "type": "Default", "timestamp": "2026-06-08T00:38:25.334+00:00", "timestampEdited": null, "callEndedTimestamp": null, "isPinned": false, "content": "@namibj : Well, I finally clawed my way back up out of that rabbit hole. . . I am now on magic version 8.3.660, and I am happy to say that this version extracted a correct (as far as I can tell) R-C netlist of the `tinyqv_quarter_label_edited_01.gds` full chip layout. Complete extraction took exactly 30 minutes on my desktop.", "author": { "id": "1365118310701600900", "name": "rtimothyedwards_19428", "discriminator": "0000", "nickname": "Tim Edwards", "color": null, "isBot": false, "roles": [], "avatarUrl": "2026-06_media/6bcc8e61db497b620550682309ace5d5-D89B4.png" }, "attachments": [], "embeds": [], "stickers": [], "reactions": [ { "emoji": { "id": "1184281983791136778", "name": "ferrisCatOwO", "code": "ferrisCatOwO", "isAnimated": false, "imageUrl": "2026-06_media/1184281983791136778-8D756.png" }, "count": 1, "users": [ { "id": "262706220073222144", "name": "namibj", "discriminator": "0000", "nickname": "namibj", "color": null, "isBot": false, "avatarUrl": "2026-06_media/f885abc0dddd0a33e4d4991b3c99091d-7ACD2.png" } ] } ], "mentions": [ { "id": "262706220073222144", "name": "namibj", "discriminator": "0000", "nickname": "namibj", "color": null, "isBot": false, "roles": [], "avatarUrl": "2026-06_media/f885abc0dddd0a33e4d4991b3c99091d-7ACD2.png" } ], "inlineEmojis": [] }, { "id": "1513341904043900948", "type": "Default", "timestamp": "2026-06-08T00:40:26.457+00:00", "timestampEdited": null, "callEndedTimestamp": null, "isPinned": false, "content": "[Yeah extracting power parasitics out of the spice let's Xyce do singleton elimination on the matrix; apparently it's a trick where some node voltages can be calculated directly from fixed inputs instead of having to be iteratively solved for.]\n(Somehow this was stuck in discord's edit buffer.)", "author": { "id": "262706220073222144", "name": "namibj", "discriminator": "0000", "nickname": "namibj", "color": null, "isBot": false, "roles": [], "avatarUrl": "2026-06_media/f885abc0dddd0a33e4d4991b3c99091d-7ACD2.png" }, "attachments": [], "embeds": [], "stickers": [], "reactions": [], "mentions": [], "inlineEmojis": [] }, { "id": "1513342648495247551", "type": "Reply", "timestamp": "2026-06-08T00:43:23.948+00:00", "timestampEdited": null, "callEndedTimestamp": null, "isPinned": false, "content": "I assume any sort of (mutual) inductance extraction isn't planned to become part of this toolkit?", "author": { "id": "262706220073222144", "name": "namibj", "discriminator": "0000", "nickname": "namibj", "color": null, "isBot": false, "roles": [], "avatarUrl": "2026-06_media/f885abc0dddd0a33e4d4991b3c99091d-7ACD2.png" }, "attachments": [], "embeds": [], "stickers": [], "reactions": [], "mentions": [ { "id": "1365118310701600900", "name": "rtimothyedwards_19428", "discriminator": "0000", "nickname": "Tim Edwards", "color": null, "isBot": false, "roles": [], "avatarUrl": "2026-06_media/6bcc8e61db497b620550682309ace5d5-D89B4.png" } ], "reference": { "messageId": "1513341396017348750", "channelId": "1505050433586991195", "guildId": "1361349522684510449" }, "inlineEmojis": [] }, { "id": "1513342807006380103", "type": "Default", "timestamp": "2026-06-08T00:44:01.74+00:00", "timestampEdited": null, "callEndedTimestamp": null, "isPinned": false, "content": "Not now, at any rate.", "author": { "id": "1365118310701600900", "name": "rtimothyedwards_19428", "discriminator": "0000", "nickname": "Tim Edwards", "color": null, "isBot": false, "roles": [], "avatarUrl": "2026-06_media/6bcc8e61db497b620550682309ace5d5-D89B4.png" }, "attachments": [], "embeds": [], "stickers": [], "reactions": [], "mentions": [], "inlineEmojis": [] }, { "id": "1513342875746832436", "type": "Default", "timestamp": "2026-06-08T00:44:18.129+00:00", "timestampEdited": null, "callEndedTimestamp": null, "isPinned": false, "content": "And what about thermal extraction to the spice?", "author": { "id": "262706220073222144", "name": "namibj", "discriminator": "0000", "nickname": "namibj", "color": null, "isBot": false, "roles": [], "avatarUrl": "2026-06_media/f885abc0dddd0a33e4d4991b3c99091d-7ACD2.png" }, "attachments": [], "embeds": [], "stickers": [], "reactions": [], "mentions": [], "inlineEmojis": [] }, { "id": "1513343069133476033", "type": "Default", "timestamp": "2026-06-08T00:45:04.236+00:00", "timestampEdited": null, "callEndedTimestamp": null, "isPinned": false, "content": "There is an open source tool that does thermal modeling; I've forgotten where it is but I can look it up.", "author": { "id": "1365118310701600900", "name": "rtimothyedwards_19428", "discriminator": "0000", "nickname": "Tim Edwards", "color": null, "isBot": false, "roles": [], "avatarUrl": "2026-06_media/6bcc8e61db497b620550682309ace5d5-D89B4.png" }, "attachments": [], "embeds": [], "stickers": [], "reactions": [], "mentions": [], "inlineEmojis": [] }, { "id": "1513343616636948520", "type": "Reply", "timestamp": "2026-06-08T00:47:14.771+00:00", "timestampEdited": null, "callEndedTimestamp": null, "isPinned": false, "content": "Not this week for me, for as I have to draw and a bit of tune and somewhat characterize a couple CML gates mostly just praying I can't fry the die with appropriate care in e.g. duty cycling.", "author": { "id": "262706220073222144", "name": "namibj", "discriminator": "0000", "nickname": "namibj", "color": null, "isBot": false, "roles": [], "avatarUrl": "2026-06_media/f885abc0dddd0a33e4d4991b3c99091d-7ACD2.png" }, "attachments": [], "embeds": [], "stickers": [], "reactions": [], "mentions": [ { "id": "1365118310701600900", "name": "rtimothyedwards_19428", "discriminator": "0000", "nickname": "Tim Edwards", "color": null, "isBot": false, "roles": [], "avatarUrl": "2026-06_media/6bcc8e61db497b620550682309ace5d5-D89B4.png" } ], "reference": { "messageId": "1513343069133476033", "channelId": "1505050433586991195", "guildId": "1361349522684510449" }, "inlineEmojis": [] }, { "id": "1513344032754106619", "type": "Default", "timestamp": "2026-06-08T00:48:53.981+00:00", "timestampEdited": null, "callEndedTimestamp": null, "isPinned": false, "content": "I've asked because spice does tend to support inclusion of lumped network thermal modeling.", "author": { "id": "262706220073222144", "name": "namibj", "discriminator": "0000", "nickname": "namibj", "color": null, "isBot": false, "roles": [], "avatarUrl": "2026-06_media/f885abc0dddd0a33e4d4991b3c99091d-7ACD2.png" }, "attachments": [], "embeds": [], "stickers": [], "reactions": [], "mentions": [], "inlineEmojis": [] }, { "id": "1513345211491680336", "type": "Default", "timestamp": "2026-06-08T00:53:35.014+00:00", "timestampEdited": null, "callEndedTimestamp": null, "isPinned": false, "content": "First I need to rework the parasitic capacitances so that the coupling caps get properly redistributed along the resistor networks, instead of being redirected to the substrate as they are now. Redirecting to the substrate preserves the signal propagation delay characteristics but eliminates all the cross-talk.", "author": { "id": "1365118310701600900", "name": "rtimothyedwards_19428", "discriminator": "0000", "nickname": "Tim Edwards", "color": null, "isBot": false, "roles": [], "avatarUrl": "2026-06_media/6bcc8e61db497b620550682309ace5d5-D89B4.png" }, "attachments": [], "embeds": [], "stickers": [], "reactions": [], "mentions": [], "inlineEmojis": [] }, { "id": "1513345752154374174", "type": "Default", "timestamp": "2026-06-08T00:55:43.918+00:00", "timestampEdited": null, "callEndedTimestamp": null, "isPinned": false, "content": "@namibj : I would be interested in knowing if you can take the full R-C extracted netlist now produced by magic for an entire chip design and run it through Xyce and actually get it to simulate.", "author": { "id": "1365118310701600900", "name": "rtimothyedwards_19428", "discriminator": "0000", "nickname": "Tim Edwards", "color": null, "isBot": false, "roles": [], "avatarUrl": "2026-06_media/6bcc8e61db497b620550682309ace5d5-D89B4.png" }, "attachments": [], "embeds": [], "stickers": [], "reactions": [], "mentions": [ { "id": "262706220073222144", "name": "namibj", "discriminator": "0000", "nickname": "namibj", "color": null, "isBot": false, "roles": [], "avatarUrl": "2026-06_media/f885abc0dddd0a33e4d4991b3c99091d-7ACD2.png" } ], "inlineEmojis": [] }, { "id": "1513346287947485224", "type": "Reply", "timestamp": "2026-06-08T00:57:51.661+00:00", "timestampEdited": null, "callEndedTimestamp": null, "isPinned": false, "content": "I probably won't get around to it before the Run 2 deadline unless I'll try to do it as part of verifying a Run2 chip's design's integration.", "author": { "id": "262706220073222144", "name": "namibj", "discriminator": "0000", "nickname": "namibj", "color": null, "isBot": false, "roles": [], "avatarUrl": "2026-06_media/f885abc0dddd0a33e4d4991b3c99091d-7ACD2.png" }, "attachments": [], "embeds": [], "stickers": [], "reactions": [], "mentions": [ { "id": "1365118310701600900", "name": "rtimothyedwards_19428", "discriminator": "0000", "nickname": "Tim Edwards", "color": null, "isBot": false, "roles": [], "avatarUrl": "2026-06_media/6bcc8e61db497b620550682309ace5d5-D89B4.png" } ], "reference": { "messageId": "1513345752154374174", "channelId": "1505050433586991195", "guildId": "1361349522684510449" }, "inlineEmojis": [] }, { "id": "1513346694740185188", "type": "Reply", "timestamp": "2026-06-08T00:59:28.648+00:00", "timestampEdited": null, "callEndedTimestamp": null, "isPinned": false, "content": "Ehhh, does that claim still hold if it's a high speed differential pair?", "author": { "id": "262706220073222144", "name": "namibj", "discriminator": "0000", "nickname": "namibj", "color": null, "isBot": false, "roles": [], "avatarUrl": "2026-06_media/f885abc0dddd0a33e4d4991b3c99091d-7ACD2.png" }, "attachments": [], "embeds": [], "stickers": [], "reactions": [], "mentions": [ { "id": "1365118310701600900", "name": "rtimothyedwards_19428", "discriminator": "0000", "nickname": "Tim Edwards", "color": null, "isBot": false, "roles": [], "avatarUrl": "2026-06_media/6bcc8e61db497b620550682309ace5d5-D89B4.png" } ], "reference": { "messageId": "1513345211491680336", "channelId": "1505050433586991195", "guildId": "1361349522684510449" }, "inlineEmojis": [] }, { "id": "1513352582527975556", "type": "Default", "timestamp": "2026-06-08T01:22:52.406+00:00", "timestampEdited": null, "callEndedTimestamp": null, "isPinned": false, "content": "The claim is mainly valid for standard cell designs.", "author": { "id": "1365118310701600900", "name": "rtimothyedwards_19428", "discriminator": "0000", "nickname": "Tim Edwards", "color": null, "isBot": false, "roles": [], "avatarUrl": "2026-06_media/6bcc8e61db497b620550682309ace5d5-D89B4.png" }, "attachments": [], "embeds": [], "stickers": [], "reactions": [], "mentions": [], "inlineEmojis": [] }, { "id": "1513352749839028364", "type": "Default", "timestamp": "2026-06-08T01:23:32.296+00:00", "timestampEdited": null, "callEndedTimestamp": null, "isPinned": false, "content": "ok yeah I figured.", "author": { "id": "262706220073222144", "name": "namibj", "discriminator": "0000", "nickname": "namibj", "color": null, "isBot": false, "roles": [], "avatarUrl": "2026-06_media/f885abc0dddd0a33e4d4991b3c99091d-7ACD2.png" }, "attachments": [], "embeds": [], "stickers": [], "reactions": [], "mentions": [], "inlineEmojis": [] }, { "id": "1513429950273814568", "type": "Default", "timestamp": "2026-06-08T06:30:18.314+00:00", "timestampEdited": null, "callEndedTimestamp": null, "isPinned": false, "content": "@Tim Edwards BTW did that rework include making the new capacitor model work with extresist ? I know previously the new modelling ( that you presented at FSiC 2024 IIRC ) was not used when combined with extresistor.", "author": { "id": "596068704471482370", "name": "246tnt", "discriminator": "0000", "nickname": "tnt", "color": null, "isBot": false, "roles": [], "avatarUrl": "2026-06_media/88d17af9d19ab43565b0c46751ef7d12-DFEE5.png" }, "attachments": [], "embeds": [], "stickers": [], "reactions": [], "mentions": [ { "id": "1365118310701600900", "name": "rtimothyedwards_19428", "discriminator": "0000", "nickname": "Tim Edwards", "color": null, "isBot": false, "roles": [], "avatarUrl": "2026-06_media/6bcc8e61db497b620550682309ace5d5-D89B4.png" } ], "inlineEmojis": [] }, { "id": "1513435436188565584", "type": "Reply", "timestamp": "2026-06-08T06:52:06.258+00:00", "timestampEdited": null, "callEndedTimestamp": null, "isPinned": false, "content": "The slow/mildly buggy flattened-gds PEX I started this thread with had C and R extracted using at least supposedly tee-connected lumped components modeling. \n\nNot sure if that's answering the question?", "author": { "id": "262706220073222144", "name": "namibj", "discriminator": "0000", "nickname": "namibj", "color": null, "isBot": false, "roles": [], "avatarUrl": "2026-06_media/f885abc0dddd0a33e4d4991b3c99091d-7ACD2.png" }, "attachments": [], "embeds": [], "stickers": [], "reactions": [], "mentions": [ { "id": "596068704471482370", "name": "246tnt", "discriminator": "0000", "nickname": "tnt", "color": null, "isBot": false, "roles": [], "avatarUrl": "2026-06_media/88d17af9d19ab43565b0c46751ef7d12-DFEE5.png" } ], "reference": { "messageId": "1513429950273814568", "channelId": "1505050433586991195", "guildId": "1361349522684510449" }, "inlineEmojis": [] }, { "id": "1513444204825804861", "type": "Default", "timestamp": "2026-06-08T07:26:56.864+00:00", "timestampEdited": null, "callEndedTimestamp": null, "isPinned": false, "content": "It doesn't.", "author": { "id": "596068704471482370", "name": "246tnt", "discriminator": "0000", "nickname": "tnt", "color": null, "isBot": false, "roles": [], "avatarUrl": "2026-06_media/88d17af9d19ab43565b0c46751ef7d12-DFEE5.png" }, "attachments": [], "embeds": [], "stickers": [], "reactions": [], "mentions": [], "inlineEmojis": [] }, { "id": "1513526167934734499", "type": "Default", "timestamp": "2026-06-08T12:52:38.392+00:00", "timestampEdited": null, "callEndedTimestamp": null, "isPinned": false, "content": "Actually that was an incorrect statement I made at the time. The capacitance *does* use the new modeling, but what it does is to redirect the coupling capacitances to the substrate, which is the next problem I'm going to work on.", "author": { "id": "1365118310701600900", "name": "rtimothyedwards_19428", "discriminator": "0000", "nickname": "Tim Edwards", "color": null, "isBot": false, "roles": [], "avatarUrl": "2026-06_media/6bcc8e61db497b620550682309ace5d5-D89B4.png" }, "attachments": [], "embeds": [], "stickers": [], "reactions": [], "mentions": [], "inlineEmojis": [] }, { "id": "1514328011510386701", "type": "Default", "timestamp": "2026-06-10T17:58:52.798+00:00", "timestampEdited": null, "callEndedTimestamp": null, "isPinned": false, "content": "@namibj : FYI, the thermal analysis tool is this one: https://github.com/peaclab/PACT", "author": { "id": "1365118310701600900", "name": "rtimothyedwards_19428", "discriminator": "0000", "nickname": "Tim Edwards", "color": null, "isBot": false, "roles": [], "avatarUrl": "2026-06_media/6bcc8e61db497b620550682309ace5d5-D89B4.png" }, "attachments": [], "embeds": [ { "title": "GitHub - peaclab/PACT: PACT: A Parallel Compact Thermal Simulator", "url": "https://github.com/peaclab/PACT", "timestamp": null, "description": "PACT: A Parallel Compact Thermal Simulator. Contribute to peaclab/PACT development by creating an account on GitHub.", "color": "#1E2327", "images": [], "fields": [], "inlineEmojis": [] } ], "stickers": [], "reactions": [], "mentions": [ { "id": "262706220073222144", "name": "namibj", "discriminator": "0000", "nickname": "namibj", "color": null, "isBot": false, "roles": [], "avatarUrl": "2026-06_media/f885abc0dddd0a33e4d4991b3c99091d-7ACD2.png" } ], "inlineEmojis": [] }, { "id": "1514328664848990291", "type": "Default", "timestamp": "2026-06-10T18:01:28.566+00:00", "timestampEdited": null, "callEndedTimestamp": null, "isPinned": false, "content": "It has a very interesting approach. They note that thermal diffusion equations are basically the same equations as you use to solve a resistor network, so they convert a layout into a SPICE netlist and use a SPICE simulator to solve the equations, then convert that back into temperature.", "author": { "id": "1365118310701600900", "name": "rtimothyedwards_19428", "discriminator": "0000", "nickname": "Tim Edwards", "color": null, "isBot": false, "roles": [], "avatarUrl": "2026-06_media/6bcc8e61db497b620550682309ace5d5-D89B4.png" }, "attachments": [], "embeds": [], "stickers": [], "reactions": [], "mentions": [], "inlineEmojis": [] }, { "id": "1514351565971001457", "type": "Reply", "timestamp": "2026-06-10T19:32:28.619+00:00", "timestampEdited": null, "callEndedTimestamp": null, "isPinned": false, "content": "Well yeah, I thought more of e.g. https://www.analog.com/en/resources/technical-articles/ltspice-soatherm-support-for-pcb-and-heat-sink-thermal-models.html or how Xyce supports a \"temperature node\" for some BSIM (not the ones of our two main PDKs) and some MEXTRAM and VBIC models.\n\nOf course that's mostly applicable to low-frequency/small-circuit transients (LTSpice SOA and thermal runaway/stability checking) and periodic steady state/harmonic balance cases of larger circuits (e.g. mmWave MMICs with very power dense HBTs or HEMTs) where thermal convergence is deliberately solved as an operating point that's static under the timescales of the fast electromagnetic simulation... at least all the heat sink effects; thermal contribution to device transient non-linearity and coupling isn't inherently ignored.", "author": { "id": "262706220073222144", "name": "namibj", "discriminator": "0000", "nickname": "namibj", "color": null, "isBot": false, "roles": [], "avatarUrl": "2026-06_media/f885abc0dddd0a33e4d4991b3c99091d-7ACD2.png" }, "attachments": [], "embeds": [], "stickers": [], "reactions": [], "mentions": [ { "id": "1365118310701600900", "name": "rtimothyedwards_19428", "discriminator": "0000", "nickname": "Tim Edwards", "color": null, "isBot": false, "roles": [], "avatarUrl": "2026-06_media/6bcc8e61db497b620550682309ace5d5-D89B4.png" } ], "reference": { "messageId": "1514328664848990291", "channelId": "1505050433586991195", "guildId": "1361349522684510449" }, "inlineEmojis": [] }, { "id": "1514356842363621416", "type": "Default", "timestamp": "2026-06-10T19:53:26.609+00:00", "timestampEdited": null, "callEndedTimestamp": null, "isPinned": false, "content": "Thanks for making me read the docs though rn, I had a minor eureka moment for how to tune the VCO to operate at the simulation frequency prescribed by harmonic balance: I just use an idealized PLL.", "author": { "id": "262706220073222144", "name": "namibj", "discriminator": "0000", "nickname": "namibj", "color": null, "isBot": false, "roles": [], "avatarUrl": "2026-06_media/f885abc0dddd0a33e4d4991b3c99091d-7ACD2.png" }, "attachments": [], "embeds": [], "stickers": [], "reactions": [], "mentions": [], "inlineEmojis": [] } ], "messageCount": 22 }